Law And Morality Debate

Summary

Lon Fuller argued that law inherently has a moral dimension, identifying eight principles necessary for a just legal system. These principles include generality, publicity, non-retroactivity, clarity, non-contradiction, possibility of compliance, constancy, and congruence. Critics like H.L.A. Hart argue that Fullers principles are procedural rather than substantive, and adherence to them doesnt guarantee just laws. Harts rule of recognition validates legal norms without reference to morality, suggesting laws can be valid even if not morally just.

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A conscientious carpenter.....who has Learned his trade well and keeps his tools sharp, might, we may Suppose as well devote himself to building a hangout for thieves as to building an orphans' asylum

The quote from Lon Fuller emphasizes the importance of morality in the application of one's skills and trade. It suggests that a skilled person, regardless of their expertise, must choose morally sound projects for their abilities to have a positive impact. Essentially, it underscores the idea that the way one applies their skills should align with ethical and moral standards.
Is there a specific legal issue or question you have related to this concept of law and morality?

what is the realtionship between law and moralty as arued by postivits and natural law thesorists. with references

The relationship between law and morality is a central debate in legal philosophy, particularly between legal positivists and natural law theorists:

Legal Positivists:
- Separation Thesis: Positivists argue that law and morality are separate entities.
- Command Theory: Law is seen as commands issued by a sovereign, backed by sanctions.
- H.L.A. Hart: Emphasized the "rule of recognition," a social rule that validates legal norms without reference to morality.

Natural Law Theorists:
- Moral Foundation: Argue that law is inherently tied to moral principles.
- Lon Fuller: Advocated for the "inner morality of law," where laws must adhere to moral standards to be valid.
- Thomas Aquinas: Asserted that unjust laws are not true laws because they violate moral principles.
Would you like more details on either perspective or references to specific works?

how is lon fuller saying law is inhernety tied to motality

Lon Fuller argues that law is inherently tied to morality through his concept of the "inner morality of law." He identifies eight principles that any legal system must adhere to in order to be just and effective. These principles include clarity, generality, non-retroactivity, and others that ensure laws serve a moral purpose.
Would you like more information on any specific principle?

what is inner moralty of law and external moralty according to lon fuller

Lon Fuller distinguishes between the "inner morality of law" and "external morality":
- Inner Morality of Law: Refers to the procedural aspects that ensure the law is effective and just. These principles include generality, publicity, non-retroactivity, clarity, non-contradiction, possibility of compliance, constancy, and congruence.
- External Morality: Relates to the substantive moral content of laws, essentially the ethical values and principles that laws aim to uphold.
Would you like to know more about a specific principle or how these concepts apply to a particular legal issue?

am not understanding this diffrences.explain like to a baby

Sure! Let's break it down:
- Inner Morality of Law: Think of this as the "rules for making rules." It's about how laws should be made and enforced to be fair and clear. For example:
- Laws should be clear and easy to understand.
- Laws should be known to everyone.
- External Morality: This is about the goodness or badness of what the laws are about. It's like saying, "Is this law a good thing?" For example:
- A law that says "don't steal" is based on the moral idea that stealing is wrong.
Do you have a specific question about these concepts?

what are critics to natural law by lon fuller or distinctions between alw and morality with references scholarry references

Critics of natural law by Lon Fuller and distinctions between law and morality are significant topics in legal philosophy. Here's a brief overview:

Critics of Natural Law by Lon Fuller:
- H.L.A. Hart:
- Criticized Fuller's "inner morality of law" for being procedural rather than substantive.
- Argued that adherence to procedural principles alone doesn't guarantee just laws.
- Ronald Dworkin:
- Contended that Fuller's principles could be met by unjust laws, thus not necessarily aligning law with morality.

Distinctions Between Law and Morality:
- Legal Positivism:
- Separation Thesis: Laws and morality are distinct.
- Key Proponent: H.L.A. Hart, "The Concept of Law" (*).
- Natural Law Theory:
- Integration Thesis: Laws derive their validity from moral principles.
- Key Proponent: Lon Fuller, "The Morality of Law" (*).
Would you like more detailed references or information on any particular critic or distinction?

H.L.A. Hart: - Criticized Fuller's "inner morality of law" for being procedural rather than substantive. - Argued that adherence to procedural principles alone doesn't guarantee just laws. expound more

H.L.A. Hart's critique of Fuller primarily revolves around two points:
*. Procedural vs. Substantive:
- Hart argued that Fuller's principles are procedural (how laws are made and enforced) rather than substantive (what the laws are about). He believed that simply following procedural principles doesn't ensure that laws will be just.
*. Rule of Recognition:
- Hart emphasized a social rule that validates legal norms (rule of recognition) without reference to morality, suggesting that laws can be valid even if they are not morally just.
Would you like more details on Hart's perspective or Fuller's response to these critiques?

i donr get this expound; Rule of Recognition:

Sure, let's break down the "Rule of Recognition" in simple terms:
- Rule of Recognition: A concept by H.L.A. Hart, which is a foundational rule in a legal system.
- Purpose: It tells us which rules are valid laws.
- How it Works: It's like a checklist that legal authorities use to decide if something counts as a law.
- Example: In Kenya, the Constitution is a key part of this rule. If a new law contradicts the Constitution, it's not valid.
Hart argues that this rule exists independently of morality. So, even if a law is not morally good, it can still be valid if it passes the "checklist."
Would you like more on Hart's theory or how this applies to a specific legal issue?

Would you like more detailed references or information on any particular critic or distinction? yes

It seems you are interested in understanding more about the critiques of Lon Fuller and the distinctions between law and morality, particularly from the perspective of H.L.A. Hart. Here are some scholarly references that might help:

Scholarly References:
- H.L.A. Hart:
- *The Concept of Law* (*)
- *Essays in Jurisprudence and Philosophy* (*)
- Lon Fuller:
- *The Morality of Law* (*)
Would you like more details on any specific work or another scholar's critique?

Law And Morality Debate

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